How can his TD on the fumble recovery not count?!?!
W_T_F_?!
[Deleted User]Mon 12/7/09 12:59 PM
Guys,
I was first to counter this scoring change to FF and had put on the table the official ruling of the NFL and their scoring system!!
Official they gave Meachem a "Fumble recovery" of 44 yards, but no points! His official scoring for WR is 1 TD.
Now I know that the Saints D should get 6 points and Meachem gets the 44 yards plus the TD, but FF weighed the ruling between ppl for and against and went for the ones that said the D shouldn't get the points!!
Bottom line to make this short ( and mind you I was in contact with them for a couple hours) We as commishes can OVERIDE their decision and change the scoring to fit the NFL ruling.
There is a problem with that too as if you do change it, you will get a uprising in your league as MOST leagues are public and aren't too tight with each other and all the sudden you have owners drop out!!
I even tried to make it fair to them to kill the play if it was causing too much confusion to owners and such, but they stated this is final and put the ball in our court!!
Bottom line FF changed it and thats it! I believe its fair to do in fairness to owners and left it to commishes to change the way they want!
A few things we would like to address really quickly (precedent is addressed here, too) to answer this and hopefully make it a moot point when done.
1) We based our ruling for fantasy purposes, and the majority of our owners agree that when a Defense is drafted, it is for purposes of gaining points for players on that Defense or Special Teams; that team is not expected to get points when the respective team's offensive unit is on the field. Therefore, we ruled this from a fantasy player's perspective.
2) Here is the precedent that we keep referring to: When a team begins a play on offense with the intent to make an offensive play (so, no punts from a shotgun) for fantasy purposes any subsequent changes in possession as ruled by the NFL are ignored. In Week 1 of this year, the Jets played the Texans and we had a similar play and set the precedent for further rulings after this:
M.Sanchez pass short left intended for D.Keller INTERCEPTED by J.Busing at HST 38. J.Busing to NYJ 48 for 14 yards (D.Keller). FUMBLES (D.Keller), recovered by HST-D.Barber at NYJ 48. D.Barber for 48 yards, TOUCHDOWN. PENALTY on NYJ-M.Sanchez, Low Block, 15 yards, enforced between downs.
To spell it out even further:
1. sanchez intercetpion by texans
2. texans fumbles
3. jets recover - the change of possession happened here but the texans were never considered on DEFENSE for Fantasy Purposes
4. jet fumbles
5. texan recovers, runs it in for a TD - Points given to the Texan defense even though the possession changed - the Jets were never considered "defensive" at any point throughout the play. It was ruled a defensive TD for the Texans as opposed to an offensive TD (even with the change of possession)
I hope this finally concludes the questions on the topic. Once again, it is a matter of interpretation and the Flea team decided to follow this one. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us at any time.
The play youve mentioned below occurs at the 2:18 mark of the video. In it, youll see that steps three and four of the scenario you list below never happened. The interceptor fumbled the ball, but it was immediately picked up by another Texan and returned for a score. The Jets never regained possession of the ball at any time after Houston intercepted the ball. Your text description of the play backs this up. Busing picks off the ball, fumbles it, and Barber picks it up for Houston and returns it the rest of the way. This is not the same as what happened with the Saints at all. The Colts-Bucs game from 2003 has the exact same play, and FF ruled that a defensive touchdown.
Again, I hope that with this example youll raise this issue again with the site manager. If hes using the Texans play as his precedent, and not the Bucs, hes got his signals mistakenly crossed.
Ok, after sitting here and looking at other forum sites, I conclude that FF is doing the right thing here and trying to say Meachem was "Defense" would cause a ripple effect through other scoring options as in SP teams and IDPs!!
FF was fair in it's decision and I retract my thought before on this!
Bottom line, the Saints D wasn't on the field and hard to give them points!!
Officially, the NFL gave Meachem the yardage on the strip but not the points as there was a change of possession 3 times and they are even having a grey area on this.
I think in fairness the play should be dead in fantasy football as there is no real ruling from the NFL, like both teams committing a penalty, take away the play and both sides of this debate would be satisfied!!
He's the boss, I agree with him, and I think most fantasy players will agree with us in changing it to an offensive fumble for "fantasy purposes." It makes the most logical sense "fantasy-wise" for owners who own the Saints' defense to not get points, as the unit on the field was the Saints' offense. Sorry for any misunderstanding earlier. This was one of the odder plays we have seen, but we have ruled similar plays this way, and will stay consistent, thus take the points away from the Saints' defense.
Can you tell me where you have ruled a play like this before? My commish thinks that you unfairly changed your policy after the play occurred and is therefore going to overrule you guys and give the credit to the defense and not to Meachem.
An "offensive fumble recovery touchdown" is only when the offense recovers their own fumble without a change of possession and scores on the same play. This is not an offensive fumble recovery touchdown. It's a defensive fumble recovery touchdown.
If it is in fact an offensive fumble recovery TD why does the fleaflicker box score have it as a 44 yard Rushing TD? In the league I play in this poses a major problem since our scoring system awards bonus 3 points for any Wide Receiver that Rushes or Passes for a TD. Meachem did neither but was awarded three points. If there is not a offensive fumble recovery Td scoring category do you think it should be substituted with a Rushing TD?
Drew Brees threw a pass that was intercepted by K. Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the ball to the Washington 44, where he was stripped of the ball by Robert Meachem, who then ran for the touchdown.
Per our policy regarding these types of plays, this is an offensive fumble recovery touchdown for Meachem and NOT a defensive fumble recovery touchdown for the Saints. The intent of having a defensive unit on a fantasy team is to own the defensive players of that team; clearly the Saints defensive unit was never on the field at any time during the play.
Like I explained in a previous thread, the scoring may not directly reflect the intentions on why you had the Saints' defense on your team, but at the end of the day, we cant "officially" change the way the NFL scores a game. You do have the options at your hand to change your past box score if you wish to change it and your league agrees on doing so.
Even though I have a rule for extra points for yardage on a Fumble TD they were not credited. They seemed to be at first but later the extra points did not show up. The yardage was 44 yds and that should have triggered the bonus.
Yes, but the "10 extra points for every Fumble Return TD between 40 and 69 yards (inclusive)" was not triggered. The return was 44 yards and should have triggered the bonus.
According to the league rules, right now, yes, you're correct in that an extra 10 points should be added with that bonus. However, 3 hours ago, the commish made a change to the scoring rules so I am wondering if this has to do with the bonus trigger not occurring. If those scoring rules were not changed, it is a bug on our part and it will be fixed Orca -- we apologize in advance. However, if that respective scoring rule was changed, the 10 points will not be triggered and this may be the cause of it. I will have our founder look into it.
Hmmm, The previous, now deleted, comment was not mine ... I think I need to change my pwsd.
Yes, the rule was added after the TD was scored to correct an error in our scoring setup. The points for the TD and the extra originally showed (20 total and the detail was correct). The next time I looked it was gone and that was after the player had scored on another play.
Also, in our defensive league the same problem is happening ... the yardage extra points are not being applied. There should have been another 5 pts applied for a fumble return in excess of 40 yards. In this case the rule has been in place from the start of the season.
Dave - It was not a password issue - it was us checking your league for you and the post on here was accidental by us as we were responding to the thread while checking your league out - sorry. We'll keep you updated on the on-goings.
I have a question. In my league, defensive TDs are scored to the defense. I'm playing the guy who started Meachem and both the Saints D and Meachem both got credit for the score. I checked my scoring rules to make sure, and WRs get credit for recieving TDs, not defensive ones.
Is the scoring correct or should one have those TD points removed? Just curious.
Technically, and per NFL rules from my understanding (and I am almost 100% sure here), once the Redskins take possession of the ball as they did on the play they are considered the offensive team; this in turn, considers the Saints the defensive team even when the Saints' offensive unit was still on the field. We'll keep an eye out on it, but it seems correct.
He was given the credit for the defensive TD because that is awarded to all players in your league. The Saints defense then also gets rewarded for the TD because it is technically a defensive TD.
hostileSun 12/6/09 2:48 PM
How can his TD on the fumble recovery not count?!?!
W_T_F_?!
[Deleted User]Mon 12/7/09 12:59 PM
Guys,
I was first to counter this scoring change to FF and had put on the table the official ruling of the NFL and their scoring system!!
Official they gave Meachem a "Fumble recovery" of 44 yards, but no points! His official scoring for WR is 1 TD.
Now I know that the Saints D should get 6 points and Meachem gets the 44 yards plus the TD, but FF weighed the ruling between ppl for and against and went for the ones that said the D shouldn't get the points!!
Bottom line to make this short ( and mind you I was in contact with them for a couple hours) We as commishes can OVERIDE their decision and change the scoring to fit the NFL ruling.
There is a problem with that too as if you do change it, you will get a uprising in your league as MOST leagues are public and aren't too tight with each other and all the sudden you have owners drop out!!
I even tried to make it fair to them to kill the play if it was causing too much confusion to owners and such, but they stated this is final and put the ball in our court!!
Bottom line FF changed it and thats it! I believe its fair to do in fairness to owners and left it to commishes to change the way they want!
Rick
FleaMod AdminMon 12/7/09 2:21 PM
Thanks, Rick.
Guys:
A few things we would like to address really quickly (precedent is addressed here, too) to answer this and hopefully make it a moot point when done.
1) We based our ruling for fantasy purposes, and the majority of our owners agree that when a Defense is drafted, it is for purposes of gaining points for players on that Defense or Special Teams; that team is not expected to get points when the respective team's offensive unit is on the field. Therefore, we ruled this from a fantasy player's perspective.
2) Here is the precedent that we keep referring to: When a team begins a play on offense with the intent to make an offensive play (so, no punts from a shotgun) for fantasy purposes any subsequent changes in possession as ruled by the NFL are ignored. In Week 1 of this year, the Jets played the Texans and we had a similar play and set the precedent for further rulings after this:
M.Sanchez pass short left intended for D.Keller INTERCEPTED by J.Busing at HST 38. J.Busing to NYJ 48 for 14 yards (D.Keller). FUMBLES (D.Keller), recovered by HST-D.Barber at NYJ 48. D.Barber for 48 yards, TOUCHDOWN. PENALTY on NYJ-M.Sanchez, Low Block, 15 yards, enforced between downs.
To spell it out even further:
1. sanchez intercetpion by texans
2. texans fumbles
3. jets recover - the change of possession happened here but the texans were never considered on DEFENSE for Fantasy Purposes
4. jet fumbles
5. texan recovers, runs it in for a TD - Points given to the Texan defense even though the possession changed - the Jets were never considered "defensive" at any point throughout the play. It was ruled a defensive TD for the Texans as opposed to an offensive TD (even with the change of possession)
I hope this finally concludes the questions on the topic. Once again, it is a matter of interpretation and the Flea team decided to follow this one. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us at any time.
Hoosier-DaddyMon 12/7/09 2:33 PM
I went back to the NFL.com site and watched the film of the Texans-Jets game.
nfl.com
The play youve mentioned below occurs at the 2:18 mark of the video. In it, youll see that steps three and four of the scenario you list below never happened. The interceptor fumbled the ball, but it was immediately picked up by another Texan and returned for a score. The Jets never regained possession of the ball at any time after Houston intercepted the ball. Your text description of the play backs this up. Busing picks off the ball, fumbles it, and Barber picks it up for Houston and returns it the rest of the way. This is not the same as what happened with the Saints at all. The Colts-Bucs game from 2003 has the exact same play, and FF ruled that a defensive touchdown.
Again, I hope that with this example youll raise this issue again with the site manager. If hes using the Texans play as his precedent, and not the Bucs, hes got his signals mistakenly crossed.
Regards,
Mike
[Deleted User]Sun 12/6/09 11:33 PM
Ok, after sitting here and looking at other forum sites, I conclude that FF is doing the right thing here and trying to say Meachem was "Defense" would cause a ripple effect through other scoring options as in SP teams and IDPs!!
FF was fair in it's decision and I retract my thought before on this!
Bottom line, the Saints D wasn't on the field and hard to give them points!!
Rick
aaron_devandryMon 12/7/09 5:54 AM
Technically, once there is a turnover, the offense becomes the defense... so the Saints D *was* on the field.
Cujo65Mon 12/7/09 7:19 AM
and Technically once the Washington fumbled, Washington was the Defense and NO was on Offense. Using your logic.
WolfpacksrMon 12/7/09 10:19 AM
So the defense can never score, because as soon as they get the ball they become the offense.
[Deleted User]Sun 12/6/09 11:10 PM
Officially, the NFL gave Meachem the yardage on the strip but not the points as there was a change of possession 3 times and they are even having a grey area on this.
I think in fairness the play should be dead in fantasy football as there is no real ruling from the NFL, like both teams committing a penalty, take away the play and both sides of this debate would be satisfied!!
Rick
aaron_devandryMon 12/7/09 5:53 AM
Incorrect. There was a change of possession TWICE, not three times.
[Deleted User]Mon 12/7/09 12:40 PM
Saints ball (1) Washingtons ball (2) Saints ball again (3), 3 possessions!!
VoltMon 12/7/09 12:59 PM
Technically that is only two changes of possession.
1 = Saints to Washington
2 = Washington back to Saints
[Deleted User]Mon 12/7/09 3:54 PM
Right, meant to say 3 possessions total not changes, thanks
Rick
fleafounder AdminSun 12/6/09 8:36 PM
There's an issue with the yardage of the score. It's being listed as 0 but it was really 44 yards. Will change shortly.
I believe it should also be changed to an offensive fumble recovery TD, which we've always credited as a rushing TD for fantasy purposes.
FleaMod AdminSun 12/6/09 9:29 PM
He's the boss, I agree with him, and I think most fantasy players will agree with us in changing it to an offensive fumble for "fantasy purposes." It makes the most logical sense "fantasy-wise" for owners who own the Saints' defense to not get points, as the unit on the field was the Saints' offense. Sorry for any misunderstanding earlier. This was one of the odder plays we have seen, but we have ruled similar plays this way, and will stay consistent, thus take the points away from the Saints' defense.
savedbyhim01Mon 12/7/09 7:40 AM
Can you tell me where you have ruled a play like this before? My commish thinks that you unfairly changed your policy after the play occurred and is therefore going to overrule you guys and give the credit to the defense and not to Meachem.
aaron_devandryMon 12/7/09 5:56 AM
An "offensive fumble recovery touchdown" is only when the offense recovers their own fumble without a change of possession and scores on the same play. This is not an offensive fumble recovery touchdown. It's a defensive fumble recovery touchdown.
MattGrannellMon 12/7/09 1:00 PM
If it is in fact an offensive fumble recovery TD why does the fleaflicker box score have it as a 44 yard Rushing TD? In the league I play in this poses a major problem since our scoring system awards bonus 3 points for any Wide Receiver that Rushes or Passes for a TD. Meachem did neither but was awarded three points. If there is not a offensive fumble recovery Td scoring category do you think it should be substituted with a Rushing TD?
DaSOBCommishSun 12/6/09 8:10 PM
this is an explanation from RTsports...
Drew Brees threw a pass that was intercepted by K. Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the ball to the Washington 44, where he was stripped of the ball by Robert Meachem, who then ran for the touchdown.
Per our policy regarding these types of plays, this is an offensive fumble recovery touchdown for Meachem and NOT a defensive fumble recovery touchdown for the Saints. The intent of having a defensive unit on a fantasy team is to own the defensive players of that team; clearly the Saints defensive unit was never on the field at any time during the play.
Thank you for your understanding in this matter.
Sounds like you guys need to take away that TD
PovertyBayOrcaSun 12/6/09 8:19 PM
I believe the Flea will get the TD in sync with how the NFL, and their official stats provider, rules the play.
However it is finally ruled, some leagues will need to adjust their rules to adjust for the TD to keep in the spirit of thier league's scoring intent.
FleaMod AdminSun 12/6/09 8:32 PM
Like I explained in a previous thread, the scoring may not directly reflect the intentions on why you had the Saints' defense on your team, but at the end of the day, we cant "officially" change the way the NFL scores a game. You do have the options at your hand to change your past box score if you wish to change it and your league agrees on doing so.
PovertyBayOrcaSun 12/6/09 5:01 PM
Even though I have a rule for extra points for yardage on a Fumble TD they were not credited. They seemed to be at first but later the extra points did not show up. The yardage was 44 yds and that should have triggered the bonus.
Did something change?
FleaMod AdminSun 12/6/09 5:21 PM
The 10 point bonus in your league was triggered (click the link below):
fleaflicker.com
10 points for every Fumble Return TD applied to 1 Fumble Return TD: 10
VoltSun 12/6/09 5:39 PM
Yes, but the "10 extra points for every Fumble Return TD between 40 and 69 yards (inclusive)" was not triggered. The return was 44 yards and should have triggered the bonus.
PovertyBayOrcaSun 12/6/09 6:02 PM
[Deleted]
FleaMod AdminSun 12/6/09 6:03 PM
According to the league rules, right now, yes, you're correct in that an extra 10 points should be added with that bonus. However, 3 hours ago, the commish made a change to the scoring rules so I am wondering if this has to do with the bonus trigger not occurring. If those scoring rules were not changed, it is a bug on our part and it will be fixed Orca -- we apologize in advance. However, if that respective scoring rule was changed, the 10 points will not be triggered and this may be the cause of it. I will have our founder look into it.
Thanks.
PovertyBayOrcaSun 12/6/09 7:20 PM
Hmmm, The previous, now deleted, comment was not mine ... I think I need to change my pwsd.
Yes, the rule was added after the TD was scored to correct an error in our scoring setup. The points for the TD and the extra originally showed (20 total and the detail was correct). The next time I looked it was gone and that was after the player had scored on another play.
Thank you for your response.
Dave
PovertyBayOrcaSun 12/6/09 7:45 PM
Also, in our defensive league the same problem is happening ... the yardage extra points are not being applied. There should have been another 5 pts applied for a fumble return in excess of 40 yards. In this case the rule has been in place from the start of the season.
fleaflicker.com
Thanks,
Dave
FleaMod AdminSun 12/6/09 8:34 PM
Dave - It was not a password issue - it was us checking your league for you and the post on here was accidental by us as we were responding to the thread while checking your league out - sorry. We'll keep you updated on the on-goings.
FleaMod AdminSun 12/6/09 8:36 PM
We're looking into this issue for you, Dave - and the above issue regarding the 10 extra points for the return. Thanks for your patience.
appollo708Sun 12/6/09 4:10 PM
Are both sides eligible for fumble recovery touchdowns in your league?
FleaMod AdminSun 12/6/09 4:24 PM
Depends on your scoring rules. In your league, the points should be rewarded to both the WR, and TM.
FleaMod AdminSun 12/6/09 4:31 PM
Just as a note so the question doesn't get asked again, if your league scoring rules says this (ALL):
6 points for every Defensive TD ALL
Then, you are currently being credited for a Meachem TD on the fumble recovery and a Saints TM TD.
NeverfoxMon 12/7/09 3:07 PM
I have this but the Saints TM score shows no TDs.
DonnyBoySun 12/6/09 3:37 PM
I have a question. In my league, defensive TDs are scored to the defense. I'm playing the guy who started Meachem and both the Saints D and Meachem both got credit for the score. I checked my scoring rules to make sure, and WRs get credit for recieving TDs, not defensive ones.
Is the scoring correct or should one have those TD points removed? Just curious.
FleaMod AdminSun 12/6/09 3:38 PM
Please see explanation posted below:
Technically, and per NFL rules from my understanding (and I am almost 100% sure here), once the Redskins take possession of the ball as they did on the play they are considered the offensive team; this in turn, considers the Saints the defensive team even when the Saints' offensive unit was still on the field. We'll keep an eye out on it, but it seems correct.
DonnyBoySun 12/6/09 3:50 PM
I was asking if Meachem should get it at the WR position as well. So far, he's got credit for both in my league. Sorry if I was confusing.
VoltSun 12/6/09 3:54 PM
He was given the credit for the defensive TD because that is awarded to all players in your league. The Saints defense then also gets rewarded for the TD because it is technically a defensive TD.
VoltSun 12/6/09 3:55 PM
Clarification of what I just wrote - if you go to your scoring rules and check Defensive TDs, it says ALL, not just TM or defensive positions.
DonnyBoySun 12/6/09 3:55 PM
Thank you. That's where I was confused:)