A source with knowledge of the situation tells Profootballtalk.com the Saints were not thrilled with the way arbitrator Stephen Burbank ruled in their favor during the Jimmy Graham franchise tag case.
The Saints "disagree" a tight end's position is determined by whether he lines up within four yards of an offensive tackle. They believe three factors distinguish tight ends: 1) Their size 2) The position group with which they meet 3) How they are defended. PFT's Mike Florio, who is an attorney, suggests the Graham case could be "a little more vulnerable to reversal" on appeal. We're still not worried about Graham losing tight end eligibility in fantasy football leagues.
This just proves that this franchise tag does not work. It is not fair to players and this is a perfect example of how salaries are manipulated to stay low so greedy owners can keep money in their pockets.
what i mean is most of the greedy owners are somewhere near the cap so most are spending the allotment agreed to.
looking at how many players are tagged every year, 7 in 2007 (only one was exclusive), 12 in 2008 (only one was exclusive), 15 in 2009 (only one was exclusive and one was recinded thus making the total 14), only 6 in 2010 (only one exclusive), 13 in 2011 (two exclusive), 19 in 2012, 8 in 2013 and only 6 in 2014. what i am getting at is in most years, less than half the teams use the tag. it is costly to them and must be truly a key play for them to use the tag. most contracts tend to be more cap friendly becouse of how the money is moved around, so owners dont care to use it so much. non-exclusive means the player can talk to other teams but teams must compensate for the loss.
the terms of the tag was renegotiated in the last CBL but originated back in 2006, put into affect in 2007.
I have to think it's fair to determine it by where they lineup, if they are lining up out wide all the time you can't just pretend they aren't playing the part of a WR regardless of the matchup pans out.
The only reason the Saints are all pissy is because that means they have to rethink how they will line him up for future references. The only reason they like things such as who they meet with in team meetings to factor in is because they can control that...they can also control who covers him by forcing matchups in their favor....their desperately trying to be sneaky...but in the long-run Jimmy Graham will remember that an no hometown discount will be available...if anything he'll make them offer him more...and really he should.
not a chance. his stats are so much higher when lined up against LB's anyway so its not the big deal everyone thinks it is. but the saints are right and all points made by the saints and the arbitrator are valid and should ALL be taken into consideration. if the league really wants to toss the few TE's a bone, create a Wide Tight position to put the pay somewhere in the middle.
but seriously, the saints offered to make him the highest paid TE and the 8th highest paid WR. stack him up against WR stats and he is closer to #15 across the board with a few exceptions. to pay him like a top 3 WR when he is not is silly and i would fight it too. the offer is a fair offer.
Regardless of their offer I don't see much merit in most of the Saints point, I will say that the position group they meet with makes sense however. Size and how defended is irrelevant in my mind because there are enough variables there. I see no problem with it be dictated by where you line up and who you meet with.
Sure seems like they offered fair money but you have to wonder if he could get more in fa.
that's questionable. not many teams are looking to blow their wad on FA anymore and the contact may end up bigger but odds are it would be back loaded and he will get cut 1st. the real question is how much more could he really get?
So because they make him what THEY consider a fair offer and he tells them to go f--- themselves because he knows he can easily get more money elsewhere, they want to strap him down and not allow him to make his own decision and force him to play there? Well, hopefully he has a bad case of the "blue flu" this year. Misses a few games, which I guarantee he will just to "stick it" to the Saints. Saints fans will say well he'd only be hurting himself and his value....could not be further from the truth. Everyone knows the numbers he is going to put up when he wants. An I think other teams expect him to "tank" this year anyways because of how sh!tty the Saints have treated him AND the fact that they'll more than likely use the tag on him next year. He won't hit it too hard this year....He'll end up in KC, GB, MIA, or ATL.
That's a bad train of thought you have going there, I don't care about his reasoning if he tanked for any team I wouldn't want him on my team that's for sure.
again, the offer makes him the highest paid TE and compared to WR's is top 8 in average salary. so how much more do you think he could get? how much more do you think he should get? if he lined up against DB's every down, his numbers would tank. is he megatron good? not just no but HE!! NO.
He is pretty much the Megatron of his position though, I'm not saying he deserves that kind of money but that's where this argument gets tricky. The fact is he DOESN'T line up against db's every down so it's not fair to play the if game.
I think the 10 to 11 million range is a reasonable expectation based on what Gronk's total is and I could easily see a team paying him that in FA. That puts him in the top 7 wr money range which I don't see as unreasonable considering his hybrid role for the team.
the current offer is beyond what Gronk is making the difference in average salary between #8 and #7 WR is only 400k. thats chump change in the grand scheme of things and not worth the friction this is causing. the #5 WR average salary is $11,111,111 so you have him between #5 and #6. I am basing this all on average salary because the reports i have read on the offer only told me the average yearly salary. now keep in mind, if he was tagged as a WR, he would be in the 14 million range so i am pleased to see an argument being made against me with some logic and sense. could he get 11 million a year in FA? maybe. depends how bad a team needs him and how much the cap hit would be. teams like GB and NE dont dump huge piles of cash into FA like that. maybe ATL just because they want to pry him away from the division rival. but for that kind of money? Julio Jones does not make the top 25 WR list of average pay so my bet is they will pay Julio before they pay Graham.
the "if" game is based on his stats when he is lined up against DB's so there is some merit to the question. you confuse me on the hybrid role because his run blocking skills has him well below average. if the discussion is if he is a complete and total package TE, i will argue that he is not all day long. Great pass catcher, horrible run blocker.
He is described as fitting a new mold of hybrid te which I pretty much a guy that catches more like a wr and doesn't block a lot in my mind which he is terrible at I agree with you. Based on the fact that gronk can't stay on the field is getting 9 million drives up what his agent is expecting I'm sure. I don't really care what he gets or anything but I can see his sides logic assuming they aren't trying to get much more than 10ish million a year. To me it's all stupid at that point because his current offer is so much does the extra 500k really matter! If Gronk hadn't gotten 9 million I wonder if the Saints would have a harder or easier time signing him.
I am curious why his stats dip against db's though, from a size/speed standpoint he seems more than capable to hold his own. I tried to find some stats but didn't have much luck since I'm at work but I'll have to dig around some more.
cornerbacks were involved in coverage on 183 of Graham's 637 routes. Brees only threw a pass toward Graham 40 times in the 2013 season against a cornerback. Graham caught 22 of those passes (55 percent success rate).
Graham's rate vs. corners would rank 81st out of 111 wide receivers last season, tied with Atlanta's Darius Johnson, according to the catch percentage rate compiled at Pro Football Focus. It would be the lowest rate among Saints wide receivers. By comparison, teammate Marques Colston ranked 11th last year, catching 70.1 percent of the passes thrown his direction.
i have a few other good links if your interested. i am sure you can find plenty that say the opposite. you know.... internet has 5 sides for every story.
LB's are a step slower and tend to give you more space than DB's. More zone from LB's. that one stat alone puts it into perspective in relation to WR pay.
So 4 years @ 40 million is the final number with over half guaranteed I guess. I think that's the right number based on Gronk's deal personally. Now the ball is in his court to produce the results.
Comments
RJ2000Mon 7/7/14 10:02 AM
This just proves that this franchise tag does not work. It is not fair to players and this is a perfect example of how salaries are manipulated to stay low so greedy owners can keep money in their pockets.
joegibbskins07Tue 7/8/14 7:03 AM
yet so many teams have very little cap room.
the player wanted FA, the owners agreed but wanted is a tag, the players AGREED.
RJ2000Wed 7/9/14 10:10 AM
not sure I understand you, but yeah the owners won the franchise tag argument in the last bargaining agreement.
joegibbskins07Wed 7/9/14 12:26 PM
what i mean is most of the greedy owners are somewhere near the cap so most are spending the allotment agreed to.
looking at how many players are tagged every year, 7 in 2007 (only one was exclusive), 12 in 2008 (only one was exclusive), 15 in 2009 (only one was exclusive and one was recinded thus making the total 14), only 6 in 2010 (only one exclusive), 13 in 2011 (two exclusive), 19 in 2012, 8 in 2013 and only 6 in 2014. what i am getting at is in most years, less than half the teams use the tag. it is costly to them and must be truly a key play for them to use the tag. most contracts tend to be more cap friendly becouse of how the money is moved around, so owners dont care to use it so much. non-exclusive means the player can talk to other teams but teams must compensate for the loss.
the terms of the tag was renegotiated in the last CBL but originated back in 2006, put into affect in 2007.
wikipedia.org
[Deleted User]Sun 7/6/14 9:32 PM
I have to think it's fair to determine it by where they lineup, if they are lining up out wide all the time you can't just pretend they aren't playing the part of a WR regardless of the matchup pans out.
GridIronGuru101Sun 7/6/14 9:37 PM
The only reason the Saints are all pissy is because that means they have to rethink how they will line him up for future references. The only reason they like things such as who they meet with in team meetings to factor in is because they can control that...they can also control who covers him by forcing matchups in their favor....their desperately trying to be sneaky...but in the long-run Jimmy Graham will remember that an no hometown discount will be available...if anything he'll make them offer him more...and really he should.
Kunta_KinteMon 7/7/14 1:17 AM
word.... tables have turned? for once?
joegibbskins07Mon 7/7/14 7:21 AM
not a chance. his stats are so much higher when lined up against LB's anyway so its not the big deal everyone thinks it is. but the saints are right and all points made by the saints and the arbitrator are valid and should ALL be taken into consideration. if the league really wants to toss the few TE's a bone, create a Wide Tight position to put the pay somewhere in the middle.
but seriously, the saints offered to make him the highest paid TE and the 8th highest paid WR. stack him up against WR stats and he is closer to #15 across the board with a few exceptions. to pay him like a top 3 WR when he is not is silly and i would fight it too. the offer is a fair offer.
[Deleted User]Mon 7/7/14 8:58 AM
Regardless of their offer I don't see much merit in most of the Saints point, I will say that the position group they meet with makes sense however. Size and how defended is irrelevant in my mind because there are enough variables there. I see no problem with it be dictated by where you line up and who you meet with.
Sure seems like they offered fair money but you have to wonder if he could get more in fa.
joegibbskins07Mon 7/7/14 9:54 AM
that's questionable. not many teams are looking to blow their wad on FA anymore and the contact may end up bigger but odds are it would be back loaded and he will get cut 1st. the real question is how much more could he really get?
GridIronGuru101Mon 7/7/14 10:33 AM
So because they make him what THEY consider a fair offer and he tells them to go f--- themselves because he knows he can easily get more money elsewhere, they want to strap him down and not allow him to make his own decision and force him to play there? Well, hopefully he has a bad case of the "blue flu" this year. Misses a few games, which I guarantee he will just to "stick it" to the Saints. Saints fans will say well he'd only be hurting himself and his value....could not be further from the truth. Everyone knows the numbers he is going to put up when he wants. An I think other teams expect him to "tank" this year anyways because of how sh!tty the Saints have treated him AND the fact that they'll more than likely use the tag on him next year. He won't hit it too hard this year....He'll end up in KC, GB, MIA, or ATL.
[Deleted User]Mon 7/7/14 10:57 AM
That's a bad train of thought you have going there, I don't care about his reasoning if he tanked for any team I wouldn't want him on my team that's for sure.
joegibbskins07Mon 7/7/14 12:10 PM
again, the offer makes him the highest paid TE and compared to WR's is top 8 in average salary. so how much more do you think he could get? how much more do you think he should get? if he lined up against DB's every down, his numbers would tank. is he megatron good? not just no but HE!! NO.
[Deleted User]Mon 7/7/14 12:56 PM
He is pretty much the Megatron of his position though, I'm not saying he deserves that kind of money but that's where this argument gets tricky. The fact is he DOESN'T line up against db's every down so it's not fair to play the if game.
I think the 10 to 11 million range is a reasonable expectation based on what Gronk's total is and I could easily see a team paying him that in FA. That puts him in the top 7 wr money range which I don't see as unreasonable considering his hybrid role for the team.
joegibbskins07Mon 7/7/14 1:35 PM
the current offer is beyond what Gronk is making the difference in average salary between #8 and #7 WR is only 400k. thats chump change in the grand scheme of things and not worth the friction this is causing. the #5 WR average salary is $11,111,111 so you have him between #5 and #6. I am basing this all on average salary because the reports i have read on the offer only told me the average yearly salary. now keep in mind, if he was tagged as a WR, he would be in the 14 million range so i am pleased to see an argument being made against me with some logic and sense. could he get 11 million a year in FA? maybe. depends how bad a team needs him and how much the cap hit would be. teams like GB and NE dont dump huge piles of cash into FA like that. maybe ATL just because they want to pry him away from the division rival. but for that kind of money? Julio Jones does not make the top 25 WR list of average pay so my bet is they will pay Julio before they pay Graham.
the "if" game is based on his stats when he is lined up against DB's so there is some merit to the question. you confuse me on the hybrid role because his run blocking skills has him well below average. if the discussion is if he is a complete and total package TE, i will argue that he is not all day long. Great pass catcher, horrible run blocker.
[Deleted User]Mon 7/7/14 1:49 PM
He is described as fitting a new mold of hybrid te which I pretty much a guy that catches more like a wr and doesn't block a lot in my mind which he is terrible at I agree with you. Based on the fact that gronk can't stay on the field is getting 9 million drives up what his agent is expecting I'm sure. I don't really care what he gets or anything but I can see his sides logic assuming they aren't trying to get much more than 10ish million a year. To me it's all stupid at that point because his current offer is so much does the extra 500k really matter! If Gronk hadn't gotten 9 million I wonder if the Saints would have a harder or easier time signing him.
I am curious why his stats dip against db's though, from a size/speed standpoint he seems more than capable to hold his own. I tried to find some stats but didn't have much luck since I'm at work but I'll have to dig around some more.
joegibbskins07Mon 7/7/14 4:43 PM
cornerbacks were involved in coverage on 183 of Graham's 637 routes. Brees only threw a pass toward Graham 40 times in the 2013 season against a cornerback. Graham caught 22 of those passes (55 percent success rate).
Graham's rate vs. corners would rank 81st out of 111 wide receivers last season, tied with Atlanta's Darius Johnson, according to the catch percentage rate compiled at Pro Football Focus. It would be the lowest rate among Saints wide receivers. By comparison, teammate Marques Colston ranked 11th last year, catching 70.1 percent of the passes thrown his direction.
joegibbskins07Mon 7/7/14 4:46 PM
nola.com
i have a few other good links if your interested. i am sure you can find plenty that say the opposite. you know.... internet has 5 sides for every story.
[Deleted User]Mon 7/7/14 4:51 PM
Interesting, I really wonder why that is now lol.
joegibbskins07Mon 7/7/14 5:20 PM
LB's are a step slower and tend to give you more space than DB's. More zone from LB's. that one stat alone puts it into perspective in relation to WR pay.
[Deleted User]Tue 7/15/14 4:10 PM
So 4 years @ 40 million is the final number with over half guaranteed I guess. I think that's the right number based on Gronk's deal personally. Now the ball is in his court to produce the results.